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questing

PostPosted: 02 Apr 2007 05:55 pm    Post subject: Wiki alternative!!

One of the founders of Wikipedia has started his own site, one intended to be a serious alternative to the original. You have to use your real name, and there is some sort of moderation. A goal is to root out vandals.

Now's the time to start those "Wage Slavery" and "Daniel DeLeón" pages!

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Main_Page

mikelepore

PostPosted: 02 Apr 2007 06:16 pm    Post subject:

Thanks! It could be another way for us to educate the public about our "dangerous" ideas :-)

questing

PostPosted: 02 Apr 2007 06:46 pm    Post subject:

I'm only hoping those pages are created before someone posts that DDeL is "Lassallean." :lol: :cry: :roll: :(

mikelepore

PostPosted: 02 Apr 2007 06:51 pm    Post subject:

Why don't we try to make the outline of what paragraphs and in what order could logically make up a new article about who De Leon was. I have written articles like that before, but I suggest starting from scratch to help us get beyond old habits. Some ideas:

* Biographical
* Concept of what socialism means
* Interpretation of Marx's theories of history and economics
* Programs for combining political and industrial organization
* His criticism of parties and unions that support reforms
* Outcomes since he died in 1914

mikelepore

PostPosted: 02 Apr 2007 07:06 pm    Post subject:

Does anyone remember where De Leon wrote - paraphrasing - if the law of value could be knocked down then capitlaism is vindicated ...? Can't find it.

davesearles

PostPosted: 03 Apr 2007 12:11 am    Post subject:

Is it this Mike?


http://www.socialistlabour.org/pdf/de_leon/eds1901/oct22_1901.pdf
The law of values utters a Truth that can never down.
Labor and labor alone produces all wealth; the only source of value in society is the
quantity of labor communicated to the commodity, and socially necessary for its
reproduction. Against that square-jointed Truth Capitalism has for over a
generation been firing its blank cartridges in rageful despair. And no wonder. From
that truth flows the sentence of death to the Capitalist system. Labor being the
source of all values in society, the idle capitalist stands branded as, not a VALUESIMPARTER,
but a VALUES-SPONGER. Once launched, a Truth of such
dimensions and significance takes care of itself. In its own deliberate way, first
slowly then with increasing celerity, it plows its way forward and crushes the social
class whose condemnation it has decreed.

mikelepore

PostPosted: 03 Apr 2007 08:33 am    Post subject:

No, I'm thinking of a De Leon quote that's very similar to this: In a battle sometimes the best strategy is to attack the enemy's weakest point, and sometimes the best strategy is to attack the enemy's strongest point. The opponents of socialism follow good instinct in attacking the law of value because if it could be knocked down then capitalism is vindicated.

I just know how much you love analogous reasoning :-)

I don't agree with what De Leon says there. Marxian economics is a model of how things work. Even if it were all wrong, a reasonable case for socialism could be made anyway, based on taking a good look at the arrangement of a numerically small class that is visibly idle and yet hoards the wealth, and in the course of that process makes inhumane policy decisions. Still, it's what De Leon believed, so a truthful article reporting on his views should include such subjects.

davesearles

PostPosted: 03 Apr 2007 01:08 pm    Post subject:

Mike wrote:

In a battle sometimes the best strategy is to attack the enemy's weakest point, and sometimes the best strategy is to attack the enemy's strongest point. The opponents of socialism follow good instinct in attacking the law of value because if it could be knocked down then capitalism is vindicated.

I just know how much you love analogous reasoning :-)

dave replies:

Sometimes great men think alike, and sometimes not at all.

Deleon would have done better I think if he had an editor instead of his self editing. So if your write an article on deleon be sure to include his maddening habit of reducung practically everything to an analogy.

questing

PostPosted: 03 Apr 2007 05:03 pm    Post subject:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please. After a cursory glance at the topic site, I gather one has to be an "expert" in order to post/edit pages.

I was thinking about doing a page that reflected the idiocy of Popper and his attacks on Marx, Heraclitus, and dialectics in general. Since I'm not some paid whore, excuse me, I almost said professor, I doubt my writing would be allowed to stand by the illustrious academics at citizendium.

Perhaps I'll just watch.

mikelepore

PostPosted: 03 Apr 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject:

questing, there may be more ways to consider. I have an idea. I have another domain called marxism.ws that isn't being currently used for anything inportant. You could write your article and have me publish it on marxism.ws, then wikipedia and/or citizendium articles could refer to and link to it as a "source."

questing

PostPosted: 04 Apr 2007 12:14 am    Post subject:

Sounds okay, Mike. Problem is, you have to have a link to "prove" what you say in your MANDATORY profile. I could have a profile, interesting things to say, but no online proof.

Have you registered at citizendium yet?

mikelepore

PostPosted: 04 Apr 2007 06:43 am    Post subject:

No, I haven't yet, because they recommend that a person write an autobiography that they consider satisfactory enough for public viewing, and I would prefer to think about it for a while.

davesearles

PostPosted: 04 Apr 2007 10:37 am    Post subject:

How about:

"I R Mik LePore of Dutchess Jct. NY, the center of the then known universe. I am an expert on many things, just ask Dave Searles he will tell you, and the few things I don't know, Dave is sure to set me straight on."

With credientials like this they would let you in anywhere.

dave

mikelepore

PostPosted: 04 Apr 2007 06:45 pm    Post subject:

questing wrote:

After a cursory glance at the topic site, I gather one has to be an "expert" in order to post/edit pages.



I interpreted it differently. I thought they said that the writers and the editors are different. The writer's contribution has to be approved by the editor. They want the editor to be a published college professor, but the writer can be a human being.

questing

PostPosted: 04 Apr 2007 09:24 pm    Post subject:

Mike, wouldn't a paid whore be tempted to tilt things their own way? If academia says that Daniel DeL. is Lassallean, then he is Lassallean no matter what the objective truth is.

I'd like to do a page on how liberalism is another way to keep workers aprt and fighting with each other. Do you think crackpot Popperites and nutcases such as Robert Jensen would allow anything that takes the focus off of race and centres it where it belongs, on class?

Robert Jensen below, typical condescending crackpot liberal paid whore/prof:

http://www.alternet.org/story/36892/

With clowns such as him around, is it any wonder the workers in the world are sinking into a more degraded state than ever before?

mikelepore

PostPosted: 05 Apr 2007 09:35 am    Post subject:

I don't think any web site that calls itself an encyclopedia would allow us to argue for viewpoints. I do hope that they will allow us to argue about the accuracy of facts. For our interpretations, we will have to find other places for that.

You're right about academia. I have a suspicion that the Lassallean thing is just that one guy who wrote that article, and not academia generally, but I undertand you're citing that as an example.

One thing I can readily think of is the set of descriptions taken as gospel that De Leon is always to be described as 'orthodox', 'dogmatic', etc. It's common for many politically active people to have some things that they insist on unocmpromisingly, but sloppy history has De Leon in particular encapsulated with this one -"Oh, yes -- De Leon -- I've heard of him. He was the stubborn and dogmatic guy."

Decades ago someone wrote a biography of Debs entitled 'Adversary In the House.' It perpetuated that stupid image. One scene in that book depicted Debs visiting De Leon's office, and De Leon is shaking his fist and ranting, "When I am the dictator of America.....!" Then Debs is so "shaken", the author says, that he runs down the street and straight into a saloon, and gulps down several glasses of whisky "as fast as he can down them!" That sort of fictitious and libelous crap is likely to be picked up by academia. Then there are also the literature libraries of groups like the CP and SWP. Their books occasionally mention De Leon, and in the same context -- oh, we remember him, he was the fanatical and stubborn guy.

Still, being impeded in the act of challenging falsehood can only be, at worst, a waste of time. No negative repercussions can arise out of it. If we waste ten minutes to tell the college whores that their assertions are false, and they make no corrections, then there is a maximum loss of ten minutes of our time. If it gets into the permanently archived history file of a Wiki site, then someone else may someday read it and link to it, or we may later make a public issue of it and link to it. As Dirty Harry with the .45 said to the guy who pulled the knife on him, "Go ahead. Make my day."

mikelepore

PostPosted: 05 Apr 2007 09:53 am    Post subject:

questing wrote:

I'd like to do a page on how liberalism is another way to keep workers aprt and fighting with each other.



Do you have, or did you ever consider getting, your own domain name (which costs about $80 for ten years at godaddy.com)?

I would also be glad to upload anything you write, but you may prefer to have your own domain.

If you want to put any of your writing on my domain, please insert the HTML tags yourself, the general syntax being:
<h1>This is the main title of the article</h1>
<p>Put a paragraph here.</p>
<p>This is another paragraph.</p>
<h2>Here's a title for a sub-section</h2>
<p>Here's another paragraph.</p>

If you have your own domain, you would also need hosting. I can get you that for free.

questing

PostPosted: 06 Apr 2007 01:42 am    Post subject:

Mike, I think the fact that he dared to go against the bummery/IWW and incipient Bolshevism is why the CP/SWP go after him so much. Also, the various vanguard grouplets are really, as I've said before, militant reformers, not really interested in socialism, just the virtuality of it. DDL didn't like that sort of thing.

My own site? I've thought about it. Yes, a hosting would be needed. Details in private, please.

mikelepore

PostPosted: 06 Apr 2007 10:00 pm    Post subject:

Check what I emailed you.

As for the wiki sites, I need to view writing contributions as long-term or lifetime projects, not tasks with a specific dates for completion. There are many family-related responsibilities tugging at me.

I'm thinking that the best way to write is outline form. One can make each intended point with a single sentence. The space immediately below that sentence can someday be the home for additional paragraphs. That someday may be five minutes later or five years later.

We need to develop something to completely present what socialism is about: the goal, the problems, the glossary of terms, the history, the FAQ, etc. That sounds like a big job, but an outline form would allow it to exist quickly and grow over time.

mikelepore

PostPosted: 12 Apr 2007 04:05 pm    Post subject:

Here's another one, not a wiki but something assuming the name 'encyclopedia':

http://marxists.org/glossary/people/d/e.htm#de-leon-daniel

Only nine lines of text and already they crammed in "doctrinaire", "sectarian", "rigidly formalistic", and "legalistic fetishism" -- largely based on a relatively lengthy (compared to the article's length) quote from SWP founder James P. Cannon. Pointers to evidence for such descriptions? None, of course.

mikelepore

PostPosted: 12 Apr 2007 04:10 pm    Post subject:

The article also says that the previous name of the Socialist Labor Party was "American Socialist League." Anyone here ever hear of that name? I never heard of it. As far as I know, the SLP was formed directly out of the disbanding of the Working Men's Party (1877 ?)

davesearles

PostPosted: 12 Apr 2007 04:45 pm    Post subject:

That is too too funny. I googled american socilaist league and came up with nothing but an:

"American 'Not-So-Socialist' League"

its about the American League in the 1950s concerning the sharing of gate receipts at the ball park.

http://jse.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/3/3/264

davesearles

PostPosted: 12 Apr 2007 04:56 pm    Post subject:

But look at this. This doesn't seem bad at all:

http://www.answers.com/topic/socialist-labor-party-of-america

mikelepore

PostPosted: 13 Apr 2007 08:31 am    Post subject:

The first encyc article on that page is pretty good. That page shows articles from several encyc's. I tried to get into the original source site that provides the the first article, Houghton Mifflin publisher, but it's password locked.

davesearles

PostPosted: 13 Apr 2007 04:52 pm    Post subject:

What's the name of it, I'll see if I can get it through the library.

dave

mikelepore

PostPosted: 14 Apr 2007 05:05 am    Post subject:

Never mind - I think I was in the wrong place. I was talking about the link you just provided. It goes to a page at answers.com that contains the article "Encyclopedia of American History > Socialist Labor Party", in addition to more articles from other sources. It appears to me now that "Encyclopedia of American History" is available at http://www.answers.com/library/Encyclopedia+of+American+History . For some reason I was trying to get into another site and found it blocked.

mikelepore

PostPosted: 14 Apr 2007 11:22 pm    Post subject:

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy .. this article about Marx -- http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/ -- has many good points, which is a pleasant discovery to me since the Friedrich Hayek Fund seems to be one of the endowments that pays for the project. Hayek was one of those Mises-like kind of writers, one of the capitalism-is-absolutely-perfect and socialism-is-pure-slavery kind of writers ... so considering the connections, the article has a remarkably good amount of academic fairness.

The author's comment about the "discredited labor theory of value" -- well, it is discredited, isn't it? -- using the word in an objective sense? Just as Copernicus was discredited by the Inquisition?

I intend to go back to that site later to look up young Karl's beer hall entourage - Max Stirner, Bruno Bauer, and the real biggie being Ludwig Feuerbach.