Why didn't Marx support all workers?

 

 

 

 

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Terry



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1
Location: Santa Clarita California

PostPosted: 24 Jun 2008 01:47 pm    Post subject: Why didn't Marx support all workers?

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Why didn't Marx always support trade unionists or even labor as a whole? Why, when speaking about the proletariat, did he mean skilled labor, tradesmen, engineers - but not ditch-diggers or peasants? That seems a little inconsistent to me.
Thank you.

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davesearles



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
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Location: Vermont

PostPosted: 24 Jun 2008 02:39 pm    Post subject:

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The thing to do Terry is to first establish the premises of your various questions:

Terry:

Why didn't Marx always support trade unionists or even labor as a whole?

DAS:

In what instances do you refer to that Marx supposedly not support trade unionists? ditto, labor as a whole.

Terry:

Why, when speaking about the proletariat, did he (Marx) mean skilled labor, tradesmen, engineers - but not ditch-diggers or peasants?

DAS:

What literature is there that Marx meant skilled labor, tradesmen, engineers to the exclusion of ditch-diggers and peasants when referring to the proletariet?


Last edited by davesearles on 24 Jun 2008 09:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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mikelepore
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PostPosted: 24 Jun 2008 08:10 pm    Post subject:

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The proletariat (a synonym for "the working class") means all people who don't own enough income-generating property (stocks, bonds, apartment buildings, etc.) to permit them to live entirely on profits, and therefore, in order to survive, they have to sell their labor-time on the labor market.

The kind of work they do has nothing to to with it. A ditch-digger and a Harvard professor are in the same economic class. They may not even realize it, but our class status is about what objectively _is_ --- whether we know it or not.

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mikelepore
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PostPosted: 24 Jun 2008 08:24 pm    Post subject:

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"Value Price and Profit" was a lecture in 1865 in which Marx announced his economic theory to some of his partners before he put his theory in writing. The lecture was later published in the form of a pamphlet. After finishing his long discussion of the laws of economics, he ended it by talking about what he figured it all means to the labor union movement, or how we should interpret the purpose of the labor union movement. Copied below are Marx's final paragraphs:

______________________________________________________


These few hints will suffice to show that the very development of
modern industry must progressively turn the scale in favour of the
capitalist against the working man, and that consequently the
general tendency of capitalistic production is not to raise, but to
sink the average standard of wages, or to push the VALUE OF LABOUR
more or less to its MINIMUM LIMIT. Such being the tendency of
THINGS in this system, is this saying that the working class ought
to renounce their resistance against the encroachments of capital,
and abandon their attempts at making the best of the occasional
chances for their temporary improvement? If they did, they would be
degraded to one level mass of broken wretches past salvation. I
think I have shown that their struggles for the standard of wages
are incidents inseparable from the whole wages system, that in 99
cases out of 100 their efforts at raising wages are only efforts at
maintaining the given value of labour, and that the necessity of
debating their price with the capitalist is inherent to their
condition of having to sell themselves as commodities. By cowardly
giving way in their everyday conflict with capital, they would
certainly disqualify themselves for the initiating of any larger
movement.

At the same time, and quite apart form the general servitude
involved in the wages system, the working class ought not to
exaggerate to themselves the ultimate working of these everyday
struggles. They ought not to forget that they are fighting with
effects, but not with the causes of those effects; that they are
retarding the downward movement, but not changing its direction;
that they are applying palliatives, not curing the malady. They
ought, therefore, not to be exclusively absorbed in these
unavoidable guerilla fights incessantly springing up from the never
ceasing encroachments of capital or changes of the market. They
ought to understand that, with all the miseries it imposes upon
them, the present system simultaneously engenders the MATERIAL
CONDITIONS and the SOCIAL FORMS necessary for an economical
reconstruction of society. Instead of the CONSERVATIVE motto, "A
FAIR DAY'S WAGE FOR A FAIR DAY'S WORK!" they ought to inscribe on
their banner the REVOLUTIONARY watchword, "ABOLITION OF THE WAGES
SYSTEM!"

After this very long and, I fear, tedious exposition, which I was
obliged to enter into to do some justice to the subject matter, I
shall conclude by proposing the following resolutions:

Firstly. A general rise in the rate of wages would result in a fall
of the general rate of profit, but, broadly speaking, not affect the
prices of commodities.

Secondly. The general tendency of capitalist production is not to
raise, but to sink the average standard of wages.

Thirdly. Trades Unions work well as centers of resistance against
the encroachments of capital. They fail partially from an
injudicious use of their power. The faily generally from limiting
themselves to a guerilla war against the effects of the existing
system, instead of simultaneously trying to change it, instead of
using their organized forces as a lever for the final emancipation
of the working class that is to say the ultimate abolition of the
wages system.

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The Greenman



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: 04 Jul 2008 01:08 am    Post subject:

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Here is a good learning video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ivypOfRU6JM
_________________
Just say NO to Leninism!

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