Relationship with SPUSA

topic 40

Relationship with SPUSA

deleonism.org Forum Index -> International De Leonist
Federation (IDF)


davesearles



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Vermont
Posted: 03 Mar 2005 03:58 pm Post subject:




In the personal and off topic category I was coresponding with a
emeber of the S.P. and it occurred to me to ask if that person
endorses the basic SIU thumbnail:

"The central administrative organ of the Socialist Republic -
exactly the opposite of the central power of capitalism, not being
the organized power of a ruling class for oppression, in short,
not being political, but exclusively administrative of the
producing forces of the land - its constituent bodies must be
exclusively industrial."

Then it occurred to me - why shouldn't the S.P. itself be asked if
it can endorse it.

Why not?

Is this so crazy that it wouldn't happen?

Do we want it to happen?

I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record on this, but
here is where I see a potential problem. If I were in the S.P. I
don't think that I would object that much to endorsing the
statement even if it happend to be first spoken by Daniel Deleon.
I think that I would have reservations about giving the
appaerancethat the S.P. was now coming under the umbrella of
"Deleonist". That I don't see ever happening. It would be too much
too swallow.

I propose that we change the name to something unapealing such as
"Advocates of Socialst Industrial Union" or ASIU and then contact
the executive committee (or whatever they have) of the S.P.

If the S.P. endorsed it, and also agreed to affiliate, it would be
kind of hard for the SLP not to affiliate as well.

IMHO

Dave

Mike I don't know how you want to handle this administratively - I
think the two issues should be discussed together - the
possibility of changing the name from Deleonist and of approaching
the S.P.

Maybe suspend the name change topic and discuss them both here?




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 03 Mar 2005 09:48 pm Post subject:




> Maybe suspend the name change topic and discuss them both here?

I think the other way around - discuss both issues in the names
topic. The reason this "general" topic exists is because I moved a
lot of posts here from the other forum category, so it's name
"general" doesn't facilitate finding whatever a person may be
looking for.

Or feel free to click the "new topic" button and start a new one
about relations with the SPUSA, and then the name can be part of
the discussion.




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 03 Mar 2005 09:55 pm Post subject:




> Mike I don't know how you want to handle this administratively

It makes me feel weird if you say it like that. I don't want to
act bossy just because I was the person who registered the domain
name where this conversation ended up being held. I would like
majority rule in the idf category of this forum.




davesearles



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Vermont
Posted: 04 Mar 2005 03:13 am Post subject:




I wrote that becaue I defer to your judgement as to what
categories what topics go into. I'd rather that you decide - to me
it's all one big discussion anyway. If you gave me any input as to
what should go where you would soon know the true definition of
the word chaos.

Dave




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 04 Mar 2005 08:00 am Post subject:




Dave - okay, I moved these to a new topic.

I'm in favor of referring to this project as the IDF, or refering
to what it is generically as "an idf" (which I like best of all),
as long as we're waiting for affiliation decisions from a list of
people that Dan Read has contacted. (I don't know what's taking
them so long to answer, but that's not Dan's fault.) While we're
in this phase, we need to help them understand that it's intended
to be an idf. The very first thing that seems to be on everyone's
minds is the concern that we might be asking them to dissolve
their own groups in order to merge into this one. Refering to it
as an idf helps to clarify that we want them to retain their
autonomy. I visualize that, after this, we will go to phase 2, and
then "really" choose a name, a charter, and a permanent web site.

Now, to discuss the Socialist Party USA ... or
http://www.sp-usa.org/ ... Everyone don't forget the hyphen or
you'll be sent to wrong place ...

They consider themselves to be a multi-tendency group. De Leonists
may join the SP, as may Fabians, Utopians, Lassalleans, Blancists,
Trotskyists, and others. Because of this, I doubt the SP would
formally endorse anything that we could propose. I may be wrong,
so go ahead and see if you can write a new sentences that you
think they might agree with.

What I think is much more likely is that some individual SP
members may want to affiliate with us. And would we welcome that?
I'd say definitely yes, assuming that they agree with the most
basic concepts that we are here for.

I would feel better if we first get more strong siu advocates
involved, and then all of us come up with a constitutional way to
prevent getting raided. We can't permit a bunch of statists and
reformists to join for the purpose of amending-out our non-statism
and our non-reformism.

I expect to be alone in voicing this, but .... I'd even support a
statement of the most basic principles in one article of the
charter than can't be amended at all, suppose that's Article 1, by
having an amendment clause that says "Articles 2 [not 1] through
[whatever] of this charter may be amended by ...." The unchangable
part should be just the most fundamental statements about the
industrial union, the ballot, revolution and not reform, etc. I
say this because, if we were to change the basics, then this group
would no longer be the same group anyway, and so, instead of
amending it to drop its fundamental principles, people would do
better to abandon it altogether. But, as everything stands right
now, what's to prevent any group of self-proclaimed "socialists"
from raiding the idf and converting it into a reformist and
statist group? Do we want to adopt an affiliation approval
process? If so, let's talk about that before we contact the SP.

I any case, one thing I'd like to see is the composition of a
document that says some things that are more general than our own
program, saying that labor produces the wealth, the capitalist
class has a parasitic role, the profit motive is a lousy system, a
more democratic kind of economy is needed, etc., and then see if a
maximum number of people who consider themselves to be socialists
of any kind would all cooperate to the extent of cosigning it. I
think that would be a wonderful exercise in working class
solidarity. Imagine getting a hundred thousand signatories,
inducing some mainstream journalists to report it. There's one
area where marxists should cooperate with reformists, because (if
worded properly) it would be an act of class solidarity that
doesn't involve compromise.

Would we agree with the SP on a program? I am skeptical.




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 04 Mar 2005 09:13 am Post subject:




"For a Living Wage and Full Employment"

One of the goals expressed at
http://www.sp-usa.org/socialistvalues/




davesearles



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Vermont
Posted: 04 Mar 2005 05:15 pm Post subject:




Mike, I will think upon what you are saying. Perhaps I was being a
bit too pie in the sky - but what the heck, I like pie. Statists
and reformists - I guiess I've been in hole too long. I didn't
know such people existed anymore.

That "living wage" thing is always a hard nut. It sounds so great
- who wouldn't be for it?

Groucho to his brothers who he has employing at his hotel - You
want wages? You don't want to be wage slaves do you? (I can't
remember what movie.)

If a living wage is a goal of an organization, it is sunk, if it's
a tactic on the road to the SIU it would be acceptable tactic - if
the organization was open about it. One time I worked in a
sweatshop which had a union. When the minimum wage increased, it
surplanted the wage specified in the union contract. Of course
this brings up the old conundrum - that it's revolutionary to seek
higher wages throgh union activity but reformist if the same thing
is accomplished through raising the minimum wage.

We who come from the SLP viewpoit have a hard time with a multi
tendency entity. In a way the S.P. can be looked at as its own
umbrella entity - but more of a tent with many poles instead of a
single pole for support. (I hate these kinds of analogies) Is
there a SIU or Deleonist tendency in the S.P.?

I remember when the SWP was pitching woo to the SLP (Maybe it was
in 1980). That incident is all blurry to me - can you recall any
of the details of that time?

Yes I like your idea of an unamendable part of the constituion -
but you and your damned ballot. You're never going to let go of
that one are you? :)

Dave




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 04 Mar 2005 08:16 pm Post subject:




davesearles wrote:
In a way the S.P. can be looked at as its own umbrella entity -
but more of a tent with many poles instead of a single pole for
support. (I hate these kinds of analogies)


On the other hand, an argument without an analogy is like a duck
trying to fly with one wing.

davesearles wrote:
Is there a SIU or Deleonist tendency in the S.P.?


The SP has forums like this one. We will find opportunities to ask
them.

davesearles wrote:
I remember when the SWP was pitching woo to the SLP (Maybe it was
in 1980). That incident is all blurry to me - can you recall any
of the details of that time?


I don't think I heard about that.




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 04 Mar 2005 08:27 pm Post subject:




Look around SP statements as
"Take Action on What Interests You" -
http://www.sp-usa.org/action/
or
"Statements" - http://www.sp-usa.org/statements/
or
"Commissions" - http://www.sp-usa.org/natl-office/commissions.html

Do you even see ANY sign that the SPUSA feels that organized labor
has an important role in the building of socialism?

They seem to be taking the liberal attitude: we support the
following kinds of groups and encourage them to join us ... women
... minorities ... anti-war demonstrators ... labor ...

Oh, labor too, huh?

They seem to promote "identity" politics, where they approach
people as "Native American artist", etc., rather than "worker".




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 04 Mar 2005 08:40 pm Post subject:




http://www.sp-usa.org/poc/reparations.html

My opinion is that the demand for the payment of reparations to
African Americans is an utterly stupid idea, entirely without
merit, reactionary, devisive, and racist.

It's one of those things that many "leftists" feel that they have
to say they support, to prove that they're really "leftists."




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 04 Mar 2005 08:48 pm Post subject:




davesearles wrote:
Groucho to his brothers who he has employing at his hotel - You
want wages? You don't want to be wage slaves do you? (I can't
remember what movie.)


I'm rather sure it was in Coconuts, 1924. The name having to do
with Cocoa Beach, Florida -- supposedly a real nice place for
hotels.

Not said to his brothers. Groucho to a large group of extras.

davesearles wrote:
Is there a SIU or Deleonist tendency in the S.P.?


I don't know if "DeLeonist" is said, but there is some SP-IWW
overlap. In fact, the employees of the SP national office are
organized as an IWW union shop.




davesearles



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Vermont
Posted: 04 Mar 2005 08:50 pm Post subject:




What is the SLP bit about a duck?

Dave

P.S. and then there is the "watchdog of capitalism"




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 04 Mar 2005 08:56 pm Post subject:




Here's how the scene in the movie went ... I have a real good
memory for movie dialogues ...

Crowd of angry workers, shouting all together: We want our wages!

Groucho: You don't want to be wage slaves, do you?

Crowd of workers: No!

Groucho: Well, what makes wage slaves? Wages! So I'll make a deal
with you. If you don't mention money, I won't mention it either!




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 04 Mar 2005 09:42 pm Post subject:




davesearles wrote:
What is the SLP bit about a duck?


This is such an important issue, I just decided to make a special
page for it ...

http://www.deleonism.org/duck.htm




Matthelme



Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Old Bridge N.J.
Posted: 15 Apr 2005 12:08 am Post subject: De leon and the IWW




It is clear that De Leon was very jealouse of the success of the
Industrial
Workers of the World and the United Mine Workers. If workers did
not want to join the SLP and become isolated depresses and
destroyed by the De Leonist ideology all the better for the labor
movement and socialism!


davesearles



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Vermont
Posted: 15 Apr 2005 10:42 am Post subject:




Matt wrote:

"It is clear that De Leon was very jealouse of the success of the
Industrial
Workers of the World and the United Mine Workers.

Dave asks:

Matt do you have a citation for any factual foundation for this
conclusion?


signed Dave




graymouser



Joined: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Tabernacle, NJ
Posted: 15 Apr 2005 01:54 pm Post subject:




As an SP USA member with some sympathy toward DeLeonism (though
I'm not one, we do have several outright DeLeonists in the party),
I think that a strong, organized DeLeonist or SIU tendency in the
SP would be a positive thing. I'm personally pushing for a
stronger emphasis on labor in the party and the reformation of our
Labor Commission to be particularly activist in working for an
activist, organized, radical labor movement, without which I feel
the Socialist movement is up a creek without a paddle.

The SP is a mixed batch; we have Social Democrats in the reformist
modern sense, but we also have our share of revolutionary Marxists
and Socialists of all stripes. I don't think that one particular
tendency is winning out at the moment, but there's certainly room
for a DeLeonist tendency, formal or not.

I've noted the Socialist Industrial Union Program criticizes the
SP for calls for "gradual reforms" - this is true. Any electoral
Socialist Party is going to need to call for immediate reforms in
the event that it actually wins seats in a government, and as
something to advocate for the short term in any case. This has
always been the practice of Socialist Parties throughout the
history of said parties; it doesn't indicate a continuation of
capitalism.

You could find an ideologically purer party than the Socialist
Party USA - or found one. But it'll be a smaller group, and
probably ultimately less capable of reaching its aims. The SP USA
has its problems, but at the end of the day it's an ideologically
diverse bunch of Socialists, in one way or another willing to
cooperate despite differences to achieve common goals

Yours for the Revolution,
Wayne S. Rossi




Social Greenman



Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 173

Posted: 15 Apr 2005 02:38 pm Post subject:




Hi greymouser,

Thanks for posting here. I am also a member of SP-USA and member
of the discussion forum as Comrade Social. Yes, I have seen the
differences of those on the forum but I do hope that an SIU
tendency will be created. Since becoming a member here on this
forum I have learned much but still unsure as to how to get labor
organised under SIU. Perhaps some things about SIU has not dawn on
me yet. Heh, you should of seen how long it took me to change a CV
joint on my car yesterday. I know the IWW is an industrial union
that has kept politics out of the union. However, that does not
mean we cannot work with members of the IWW (by creating an SIU
tendency as an unoffical members project) or other labor orgs and
labor in general. I threw this out as a suggestion that since this
large industrial union wants no part in electoral politics that an
outside SIU political tendency to form from labor since the idea
is to abolish the government aspect of SIU shortly after a
revolution. Perhaps SP-USA could play that role. I figure work
with what is already present. Even though this is a sugestion I
ask everyone to remember I am still new and learning and I know
that this sugestion could be meaningless since I am not up to par
on politics.

Social


Social Greenman



Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 173

Posted: 15 Apr 2005 03:11 pm Post subject:




I almost forgot to post this. Another thing that comes to mind is
that a socialist economic model should be pushed to replace
capitalism. Now, I do favor Mike's model (not because he wrote it)
since it has a nice feel to it and looks quite workable. I think
it would do socialism justice with a new economic system rather
than trying to form socialism around capitalism.

Social


Matthelme



Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Old Bridge N.J.
Posted: 16 Apr 2005 01:04 am Post subject: To Dave




Factual Foundation. Just look at how De Leon treated other people
in the Socialist movement.De Leon threw slanderouse remarks at
people becouse they did not buy the SIU program.




davesearles



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Vermont
Posted: 16 Apr 2005 01:13 am Post subject:




Yes, but sometimes people like to have facts substantiated.

Can we have documentation of just one slanderous remark that
DeLeon made?



signed Dave




Matthelme



Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Old Bridge N.J.
Posted: 16 Apr 2005 01:32 am Post subject: Dave




De Leon liked to call the AFL "labor" fakers. Just becouse these
guys where organizing workers for better pay and working
conditions and not for the SIU program! A bit outrages to me.




Social Greenman



Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 173

Posted: 16 Apr 2005 12:34 pm Post subject:




Quote:
UNION CORRUPTION

Corruption has followed inevitably. Most union leaders started out
as sincere and honest people, but the harsh realities of
capitalism quickly disillusioned them. The more hopeless the
plight of the rank and file appeared, the more the union leaders
turned to feathering their own nests. Careerists and opportunists
rose to the top, exploiting the workers' instinct for solidarity
to promote their own bureaucratic interests as labor merchants of
the capitalist class of labor exploiters. In strike after strike,
the unions have sacrificed and bartered away the workers'
interests in exchange for such things as the "union shop" and the
dues "checkoff" that practically make the capitalist employer a
union official and dues collector. And they seal these deals with
labor contracts that tie workers' hands and that capitalists often
break.

This is corruption of the worst kind. It perverts the historic
mission of unionism. Yet, despite their betrayals of the workers'
interests, virtually everyone who pretends to have the workers'
interests at heart--including the "Communists," the "Socialist"
reformers, and the "friend of labor" liberals--upholds the present
unions.

http://www.slp.org/wrongunions.htm

You would not believe how many times a contract was temporarily
made void due to some financial crisis in the shop I worked at.
Yet, to contact the upper union officials about this voided
measure that was taken no one knew where they went out-of-town to.
When the contract was re-established the union officials were back
in their office. These are the games that are played. The union:
United Steelworkers of America.

Quote:
HAS ANY EFFORT IN THE PAST BEEN MADE TO BUILD A REAL UNION

Yes, here in America. Briefly, it began with the Knights of Labor
(KofL), Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) and the Socialist
Trade and Labor Alliance (ST&LA). Daniel De Leon, a member of the
Socialist Labor Party, was instrumental in forming the ST&LA and
made important contributions to structuring the IWW on correct
principles. Later, anarchists captured control of the IWW and
threw out key principles. All of these attempts to build real
unions were shoved aside making workers susceptible to the AFL and
CIO pro-capitalist unions. They were, and still are, bossed by
labor merchandising bureaucrats. After their peak in the thirties,
these unions have been steadily declining and have sustained
several major setbacks such as these strikes that were broken: P-9
(that struggling union was decertified by its own national
organization), PATCO (a classic case of organized scabbing by
other autonomous unions), Greyhound bus drivers and Caterpillar
workers. So much for the refrain "capital and labor are brothers"
and so much for "union solidarity forever," ballyhooed for years
on end by the union top brass. Their forte is disorganizing the
organized working brothers and sisters to adapt to the capitalist
family.

http://socialismmarxdeleonforarealunion.org/Socialism_and_Unionism.html

Social

mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 16 Apr 2005 04:43 pm Post subject: Re: Dave




Matthelme wrote:
De Leon liked to call the AFL "labor" fakers. Just becouse these
guys where organizing workers for better pay and working
conditions and not for the SIU program! A bit outrages to me.


No, not because they were organizing workers for better pay and
wokring condiitons. They were, and are, labor fakers because of
their statements that capitalists are naturally entitled to be the
industries' owners and workers' bosses, their statements that
capitalists are entited to the profits that they extract from the
workers, their annual support for capitalist politicians, their
support for flag-waving nationalism.




Matthelme



Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Old Bridge N.J.
Posted: 17 Apr 2005 04:11 am Post subject: To Mike




Non-sence, De Leon put Bill Haywood and Lizz Flynn and the rest of
the IWW in the " Labor Faker" boat.De Leon was( and most De
Leonist still are) Jelouse becouse the IWW the CIO and later the
AFL-CIO organized workers for real social change. What did the SLP
ever do? What did the ST&LA ever do? Nothing but talk?The IWW CIO
and AFL-CIO helped bring home the bacon,and in the end that is all
that really counts.The labor movement is in a mess becouse of
right wing leadership selling out the movement, but is the
isolation,depression and destruction that the Socialist Industrial
Union program offers the way out? No!




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 17 Apr 2005 06:56 am Post subject:




That a useful skill you have. A trained psychoanalyst has to
interview an individual for numerous hours before determining the
emotional drives behind what the person does, but you have the
ability to simply hear the news that the person supports a
political view that you don't share, and you can instantly
determine that the individual is acting out of the emotional drive
of jealousy.




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 17 Apr 2005 07:02 am Post subject:




"helped bring home the bacon, and in the end that is all that
really counts"

Not in the opinion of socialists.




Matthelme



Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Old Bridge N.J.
Posted: 18 Apr 2005 02:43 am Post subject: To Mike




I have been dedicated to the cause of Socialism sence my days in
High School, and i don't appreciate your implication that i am
not!Just becouse i don't go along with the SIU program. So what!




davesearles



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Vermont
Posted: 18 Apr 2005 01:02 pm Post subject:




In answer to my request that Matt provide documentation of
slanders by De Leon, Matt wrote:

DeLeon liked to call the AFL "labor" fakers. Just becouse these
guys where organizing workers for better pay and working
conditions and not for the SIU program! A bit outrages to me.

Dave replies:

Would you please post specifically where DeLeon said this, so that
we can see the context?

Thanks,

Dave




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 488

Posted: 18 Apr 2005 02:30 pm Post subject:




Matt seems to have "learned" from the rich verbal tradition on the
political left, what "everyone knows" - the defects of De Leon,
and the bad things he reportedly said and did. However, most of it
is apocryphal and mythologized. Dave is correct in insisting that
Matt show citations or documentation.

The other thing, of course, is that even if De Leon were a
monster, that would be no reflection on the program that he
developed, just as a light bulb is able to light up even if we
were to learn bad things about the character of Thomas Edison.


davesearles



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 443
Location: Vermont
Posted: 19 Apr 2005 08:20 pm Post subject:

In fact my grandfather used to work for him as a designer - he
said that Edison was the worst employer that he ever had - and he
seldom complained about anyone. I was thinking of a more extreme
example than Mike gave - Adolph Hitler is often credited with the
idea behind the design of the VW bug - the people's car. Great car
for it's day.

Dave