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Brief PURPOSE statement mikelepore Site Admin Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 393 Posted: 13 Feb 2005 03:24 pm Post subject: Brief PURPOSE statement Received in email from Searles. Lepore voting yes. Dan, would you also vote yes to adopt this immediately? Purpose The IDF is a loose, voluntary affiliation of organizations and individuals who are in basic agreement with the Socialist Industrial Union program of Daniel De Leon. The purpose of the affiliation is to serve as an umbrella entity under which affiliates may work together as they see fit to better promote the SIU idea. Activities of the IDF as a whole shall be administered by one-person, one-vote. Magoo Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 17 Location: Portsmouth, England Posted: 13 Feb 2005 05:50 pm Post subject: I vote yes mikelepore Site Admin Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 393 Posted: 13 Feb 2005 06:53 pm Post subject: Hoping there will be no objection, I have modified the file listing to include this statement as the point of major emphasis, and at the same time reducing the emphasis of the previous contents. See: http://www.deleonism.org/federation.htm Technical note to myself: Previous version, record 008, New version, record 010. Guest Posted: 15 Feb 2005 09:14 pm Post subject: " to better promote the SIU idea" How about changing it to simply "to better promote and work towards the SIU program". I know it might sound like nitpicking but the word "idea" just reminds me of idealism, for pretty clear reasons, and of course thats somthing we would want to avoid! Dan R mikelepore Site Admin Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 393 Posted: 17 Feb 2005 09:35 am Post subject: Agreed. Change enacted. (I actually like building up co-authored material a little bit at a time. I think we even ought to try writing additional documents, one sentence at a time.) Magoo Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 17 Location: Portsmouth, England Posted: 17 Feb 2005 04:22 pm Post subject: Excellent, thankyou for enacting the change, in my view it reads much better now. If we are going to draft things while continuing a discussion, perhaps we should now think of what we need to address in document form. Regards Dan R mikelepore Site Admin Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 393 Posted: 18 Feb 2005 02:50 pm Post subject: "perhaps we should now think of what we need to address in document form" ... ?? could you rephrase that? do you mean, first make a list of things-to-do, and then start doing them? mikelepore Site Admin Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 393 Posted: 18 Feb 2005 02:56 pm Post subject: I suggest we make a "new topic" when we change topics. To draft a policy statement on ... whatever ... new topic. So later we can go back and find our notes, and so new forum visitors can find them. Guest Posted: 19 Feb 2005 11:13 pm Post subject: Yes that is what I ment. Still have not got a reply from anybody, including seperate sections of the SLP that I contacted. Maybe its just a case of waiting I guess. Regards Dan R PowerKord Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 29 Location: East Coast, U.S.A. Posted: 21 Apr 2005 08:40 pm Post subject: "ASSOCIATION" NOT "AFFILIATION" Greetings, I wish to address an issue regarding the phrasing of the IDF Statement of Purpose (SOP) which has bothered me since its ratification. The Statement of Purpose presently reads as follows: "The International De Leonist Federation is a loose, voluntary affiliation of organizations and individuals who are in basic agreement with the Socialist Industrial Union program of Daniel De Leon. The purpose of the affiliation is to serve as an umbrella entity under which affiliates may work together as they see fit to better promote and work towards the SIU program. Activities of the IDF as a whole shall be administered by one-person, one-vote." I suggest the word "affiliation" as used twice in this statement be changed to "association," as originally written, because the word "affiliation," for its intended purpose, in this context, constitutes uncommon and, in fact, officially incorrect usage (as cited, below). This may be why it sounds awkward to the ear. It is also stylistically inelegant. When one thinks of an entity consisting of loosely-bound sub-entities that have come together for some purpose, one thinks of the word association. It is a common, and ubiquitously-understood word, which immediately conveys the intended meaning. "Affiliation," on the other hand, is most commonly used and understood not to describe such an entity (with sub-entities, in this case), but to describe a condition, a condition of relationship, such as: "Son, I demand you discontinue your affiliation with that rowdy group." This example sentence reflects common usage: "affiliation" describes the condition of relationship, or the relation, of the individual to the group. It is not used to describe the group, itself. That would be awkward, uncommon, and incorrect usage. Yet that is exactly how "affiliation" is presently used in the IDF Statement of Purpose: the body or group is presently referred to there as an affiliation. According to the Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, Second Edition, the word "affiliation" as presently used in the SOP is formally and denotatively incorrect. This reference work defines association as: "An ORGANIZATION of people with a common purpose and having a formal structure." (Emphasis mine) ...whereas affiliation is defined as: "the ACT of affiliating; STATE of being affiliated or associated." (Emphasis mine) If the IDF is an act or state, the present term can remain. If the IDF is an organization, the term should be changed. The present diction is officially incorrect, as well as awkward to the ear. The revised statement would read this way: "The International De Leonist Federation is a loose, voluntary association of organizations and individuals who are in basic agreement with the Socialist Industrial Union program of Daniel De Leon. The purpose of the association is to serve as an umbrella entity under which affiliates may work together as they see fit to better promote and work towards the SIU program. Activities of the IDF as a whole shall be administered by one-person, one-vote." Now properly written. More importantly, now much more comprehensible and clear--and hence more appealing and effective. Superficially, one might think that because members are called affiliates, the body must or should be called an affiliation. For better or worse, and it's probably for the better, the English language doesn't always work this way. Additionally, good writing is very much art as science. Cordially, vince PEOPLE FOR A COOPERATIVE SOCIETY www.Cooperative-Society.org mikelepore Site Admin Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 393 Posted: 22 Apr 2005 01:59 am Post subject: That's a good observation, Power. It would be better if we do this: First use of "affiliation" --> change to "association". Second use of "affiliation" --> change to "association". Single use of "affiliates" --> leave as-is. Other people, discuss? davesearles Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 413 Location: Vermont Posted: 26 Apr 2005 11:52 am Post subject: This is a little more succint and avoids all mention of members, associates or affiliates The International De Leonist Federation is a group of organizations and individuals who are in basic agreement with the Socialist Industrial Union program of Daniel De Leon. Its purpose is to serve as an umbrella entity to promote cooperation concerning the SIU program. I would like to go ahead and propose dropping Comrade DeLeon from name so as to better focus toward the furure instead of the past -but whatever the majority thinks I am a slave to. Dave PowerKord Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 29 Location: East Coast, U.S.A. Posted: 26 Apr 2005 07:27 pm Post subject: Terminology Needed ----- ----- No, the statement should mention the terminology; it helps explain basic status and relationships. PEOPLE FOR A COOPERATIVE SOCIETY www.Cooperative-Society.org davesearles Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 413 Location: Vermont Posted: 26 Apr 2005 11:47 pm Post subject: Yes having a word that in a nutshell denotes basic status and relationships is a good thing. I think that word is federation. A statement of purpose ought to be just that a statement of purpose - So I would take out the one person one vote thing as well. Dave Message of Mirth mikelepore Site Admin Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 393 Posted: 27 Apr 2005 08:04 am Post subject: Saying one-person-one-vote is part of defining what we mean by "federation". Since earlier public communiations mentioned the possibility of whole organizations affiliating, someone might get the impression that an organization of three people gets one vote, and an organization of a thousand people gets one vote. Author Message davesearles Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 413 Location: Vermont Posted: 27 Apr 2005 12:34 pm Post subject: Then that definitely should not be in a statement of purpose. I hadn't registered with me that that was what one person one vote meant. So IF the SLP joins the IDF they get as many votes as they have members? Ditto with the SP or CPUSA? Has this really been thought out? In any event - how we count votes is subsidiary to our purpose but it is not our purpose. signed Dave Message of Agita davesearles Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 413 Location: Vermont Posted: 27 Apr 2005 12:53 pm Post subject: also to be even a little more succint we could take out "who" signed Dave Message of Agita (I like this one - thanks to Vince for giving me the idea) davesearles Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 413 Location: Vermont Posted: 27 Apr 2005 11:37 pm Post subject: The statement of principles states: "The International De Leonist Federation is a loose, voluntary affiliation of organizations and individuals who are in basic agreement..." Vince wrote: "affiliation" describes the condition of relationship, or the relation, of the individual to the group. It is not used to describe the group, itself. That would be awkward, uncommon, and incorrect usage. Yet that is exactly how "affiliation" is presently used in the IDF Statement of Purpose: the body or group is presently referred to there as an affiliation. "According to the Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, Second Edition, the word "affiliation" as presently used in the SOP is formally and denotatively incorrect. Dave writes: I am so glad that Vince pointed this out that the use of the word "affiliation" to describe a group is formally and denotatively incorrect. I am sending out an email to the folowing organizations that under order of the IDF minister of information and propaganda, that they are immediately to cease and desist from using formally and denotatively incorrect terminology: The Affiliation of Christian Geologists. The Affiliation of Multicultural Societies and Service Agencies of British Columbia The Affiliation of Christian Biologists The International Affiliation of Writers Guilds The Affiliation of Professional Education Associations Polaris International is an international affiliation of independent accounting/consulting firms with over 135 member firms worldwide. The Affiliation of Registered Celtic Supporters Clubs International Affiliation of Compeer Programs The National Affiliation of Arts Educators Affiliation of Crystal Healing Organizations Affiliation of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters International Affiliation of Land Reclamationists I am sure that I will hunt up other formally and denotatively incorrect miscreants as well. signed Dave MESSAGE OF AGITA mikelepore Site Admin Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 393 Posted: 28 Apr 2005 01:54 pm Post subject: Dave, why don't you take what's there now and separate it into two statements: statement of purpose and definition of affiliation. Then we can tinker with them separately. Maybe fom now on every point to be made should be presented as a sentence-sized unit. davesearles Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 413 Location: Vermont Posted: 29 Apr 2005 01:22 am Post subject: In the last post of mine, I wasn't arguing for affiliation to be left in, I was just yanking Vince's chain on the "formally and denotatively incorrect" bit. A succint form in only two sentences is as follows: "The International De Leonist Federation is a group of organizations and individuals in basic agreement with the Socialist Industrial Union program of Daniel De Leon." "Its purpose is to serve as an umbrella entity to promote advocacy of that program. " signed dave Message of Agita mikelepore Site Admin Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 393 Posted: 29 Apr 2005 01:58 pm Post subject: Redundancy in "promote advocacy"? "to promote advocacy of that program" can be reduced to "to promote that program." ________ Which is better -- the word "this" or "that"? Either way, I don't like the sound of the second sentence. "That program." It sounds dismissive. "That's the way the cookie crumbles." "That darned cat." "I did not have sex with that woman." But making it "this" also grates on my ears for some reason. davesearles Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 413 Location: Vermont Posted: 29 Apr 2005 05:39 pm Post subject: You peasant - how dare you criticize a literary great work of art!! Actually I wrestled with the same thing - it is awkward the way it is, but this is what I didn't like about the way that you now propose - the word program. What is it? Sometimes I hear about the PROGRAM of the SLP is to promote SIU. Is the program the advocacy of the SIU? Or is the program what the SIU is supposed to do? (Be the organizational structure for the cooperation of workers.) I don't know. It's a word that rolls right of of our tounges without a whole lot of thought. What says you? (Or any other peasant.) Dave mikelepore Site Admin Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 393 Posted: 29 Apr 2005 08:53 pm Post subject: Suppose we replace "that program" with a specific phrase such as "organization of the working class for blah-blah-blah." graymouser Joined: 15 Apr 2005 Posts: 34 Location: Tabernacle, NJ Posted: 29 Apr 2005 08:55 pm Post subject: The best sentence keeping the original sense is: "Its purpose is to serve as an umbrella entity for advocacy of that (or this, or the) program. " "to promote" is more direct: the IDF is then promoting. "for advocacy" is indirect: the IDF is an umbrella group, made up of individuals and groups who advocate the SIU program. -Wayne mikelepore Site Admin Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 393 Posted: 29 Apr 2005 09:00 pm Post subject: Quote: I was just yanking Vince's chain You shouldn't do that, because he already expressed that he doesn't like it. mikelepore Site Admin Joined: 17 Sep 2004 Posts: 393 Posted: 29 Apr 2005 09:21 pm Post subject: davesearles wrote: I hadn't registered with me that that was what one person one vote meant. So IF the SLP joins the IDF they get as many votes as they have members? The way I was visualizing it, only those individuals in the SLP who bother to contact us about afifliation would have a vote. An organization can't just sweep in it's entire membership. For entire organizations affiliating, I'd recommmend that their adopted actions and documents speak for those organizations which choose to be signatories to each action. If we don't do that, each organizaiton is in danger, or perceives a danger, of having their principles misrepresented. davesearles wrote: Ditto with the SP or CPUSA? Uggg. i think we need to begin an application approval process. I would vote against admitting the CP as an affiliated organization. Certain individuals in the CP might be acceptable. (As for the SP, I don't know enough about them to make such as statement.) davesearles wrote: Has this really been thought out? You may know the old joke ... ecstacy is defined as the feeling that you get just after you come up with a great idea, and just before you realize what's wrong with it ... davesearles wrote: In any event - how we count votes is subsidiary to our purpose but it is not our purpose. Like I said the other day, okay, we can move that to another thing. davesearles Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 413 Location: Vermont Posted: 29 Apr 2005 09:34 pm Post subject: I am lost . Can each person now post the whole statement of purpose as they think it should be? Thanks, Dave
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