organization name / web site name / terminology

topic 30

organization name / web site name / terminology

deleonism.org Forum Index -> International De Leonist
Federation (IDF)


mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 403

Posted: 09 Feb 2005 11:41 pm Post subject: organization name /
web site name / terminology




... Continued from the 'General Discussion' topic ...

Some have suggested that the term "De Leonist" in the name of an
organization is not desirable because it is not the best choice to
indicate that the organization's purpose is to educate the working
class about socialist industrial unionism.

Some have suggested that people may be initially "turned off" by
the use of certain terms, perhaps: "socialism", "union", "party",
etc.

If there is additional discussion about organization names, web
site names, web site URLs, preferences about terminology, etc.,
please continue it here instead of in the 'General Discussion'
topic.

Guest
Posted: 10 Feb 2005 11:41 am

Dear all

I for one think that the term "DeLeonist" may simply confuse those
who are not in the know, and those that do understand it, may just
think of the SLP. Is that a good or bad thing? I dont know, since
I prefer to keep out of some of the anti-SLP sentiment that
appears to be present, since I cant comment what with living
overseas.

The word "socialism" could be acceptable, though to some it might
seem like "just another socialist party" and of course the word
also brings with it plenty of baggage in the form of false
propaganda.

However the word "union" I think is excellent. Only a total clown
who we would not be interested in recruiting anyway would have a
problem with the notion of unions. I therefore think, out of all
the phrases and words being discussed here, that its highly
desirable to include the word "union" in the organisation title.

Heres a few names I just rattled off, comments are very welcome:

Federation for workers Unionism
Socialist Industrial Union Federation
Socialist Union Federation
Industrial Union Coalition

Not the best, but they might be ok, any ideas? The words
"Coalition" or "Federation" are not really important, any would
do.

Regards
Dan Read




Guest






Posted: 10 Feb 2005 03:44 pm Post subject: The Power of De
Leon




Hello...

You know, when all is said and done, there's just something about
the word "De Leonist"; maybe it's because simply SO many people
know that word, and instantly know what it means (people in the
movement, I mean).

And, because, let's face it, the SIU program is pretty much
inextricably linked to Daniel De Leon in the minds of people; they
think of one, they think of the other.

I mean, if we were advocating a more general "syndicalist"
program, then we could probably get away from De Leon's name--but
were not, are we? Is there any variant of syndicalism which calls
for a program identical to the De Leonist SIU program?

Best,

vince




Guest






Posted: 10 Feb 2005 04:01 pm Post subject: 'Cooperative'




hELLO,

Ok, tell ya what.

There's one name, or root word, I basically like, other than
International De Leonist Federation...

...ready for this?

Something with "cooperative" in it...like:

People for a Cooperative Planet
Cooperative Society Federation
Alliance for a Cooperative World

As far as something with Industrial Union in it, how about:

Industrial Union Federation (a variant of my old Industrial Union
Party)

Let's bear in mind, by the way, that socialist industrial unions
are not the socialist industrial union program--they are part of
the program. They refer to organizing industrially...they say or
imply nothing about organizing and working politically. Once you
realize this--and I just did--you also realize an advantage to "De
Leonist"...it implies both parts of the program; the whole
program.

. . .

Look, I think the whole thing hinges on something I wrote
previously.

If we view the IDF as the wholesale group, which would tend not to
appeal directly to workers, instead leaving that principally to
its affiliates, then we can give it a more esoteric name like
International De Leonist Federation.

But if the IDF is really to appeal to people directly and
aggressively, as a party would do, then we'd better give it a very
comprehensible, "friendly" name (see previously discussed
marketing principles...).

A name, indeed, like:

People for a Cooperative Planet

(which I don't think is half-bad, by the way)

Ok.

peaceout.

vince




Guest



Posted: 11 Feb 2005 09:40 am Post subject:




Dear all

I like the sound of Industrial Union Federation. Not too keen on
the word coperative though. It could kind of give off the
impression that we are looking to establish workers coperatives of
an anarchist fashion.

Regards
Dan Read




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 403

Posted: 11 Feb 2005 04:42 pm Post subject:




Idea to kick around:

Maybe the name IDF can be used only for the sub-structure of
uniting the already existing organizations, i.e., people who
already know what DeLeonism means, and who want to see something
that ensures that reformists and stalinists and certain others
will not be invited.

If people like a better name for public clarity, maybe that can be
used at the top-most level of federation.

Diagram #1:

... Name of Top Organization
...
........ IDF:
............... political party #1
............... political party #2
............... labor union #1
............... labor union #2
............... whatever else
........
........ Individual member Moe
........ Individual member Larry
........ Individual member Curly




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 403

Posted: 11 Feb 2005 04:51 pm Post subject:




Quote:
I like the sound of Industrial Union Federation.


However, it loses precision. For two reasons.

(1) We are not a federation of IU's. We are a fed pf DeLeonists.
Just refering here to precision, and not necessarily to which name
sounds best.

(2) IU is already the established term for unions, some of them
pro-capitalism, which unite numerous skills to have one union per
shop.

Quote:
Not too keen on the word coperative though. It could kind of give
off the impression that we are looking to establish workers
coperatives of an anarchist fashion.


"Cooperative" reminds me of Quakers and Mormons.




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 403

Posted: 11 Feb 2005 04:56 pm Post subject: Re: 'Cooperative'




Quote:
People for a Cooperative Planet


Linguistically imprecise.
No one uses "planet" to mean human society.
The planet is the big rock that we're standing on.




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 403

Posted: 11 Feb 2005 05:15 pm Post subject:




Lepore Idea Number 2 to kick around:

Why doesn't anyone who doesn't like the term IDF just constitute
themselves by a different name as one or more of the affilated
groups?

Diagram #2:

IDF
..... New Unionist
..... New System USA
..... Socialist Labor Party
..... De Leonist Society of Canada
..... Association for the Promotion of Socialist Industrial
Unionism
..... People for a Cooperative Society or Planet
..... Individual member Moe
..... Individual member Larry
..... Individual member Curly




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 403

Posted: 11 Feb 2005 05:33 pm Post subject: Re: The Power of De
Leon




Vince,

Quote:
I mean, if we were advocating a more general "syndicalist"
program, then we could probably get away from De Leon's name--but
were not, are we? Is there any variant of syndicalism which calls
for a program identical to the De Leonist SIU program?


I think you're right about the syndicalist mix-up. Those
alternative terms, such as IU and IU-ism, they are also in use by
the one group that is sensorially numb to the political aspect of
the program, the Industrial Workers of the World, and several
groups that are outright opposed to the political aspect of the
program, including the the International Communist Current and the
International Workers Association.

---

PS -- all yous guys who are showing up as "guest", did you try LOG
OUT and re-doing LOG IN ?




davesearles



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 416
Location: Vermont
Posted: 20 Feb 2005 04:20 pm Post subject:




Can we agree that as used in the title of the group that DeLeonist
refers only to the SIU concept? Otherwise I have no idea what is
meant by DeLeonist.

Dave




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 403

Posted: 20 Feb 2005 05:56 pm Post subject:




Dave - Yes, and remind me if I'm forgeting anything here... To me
the term DeLeonist means the addition of the SIU concept to what
Marx and Engels had started but left unfinished. What was added
was the idea of the industrial union to carry on production
democratically, and political organization to make the best
possible use of the already-existing political institutions to
mandate a social change.

As I recall, De Leon's development of this idea was nearly
simultaneous with Trautmann of the IWW proposing "one big union."
The DeLeonist part is in how the industrial and political actions
could work together.

We should probably indicate somewhere that - what you said -
DeLeonist means the SIU. He may have said or written various
things that we aren't adopting, or done some things that we don't
wish to emulate. Same thing for the word Marxism - there are a few
specific concepts that can be listed.




mikelepore
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 403

Posted: 20 Feb 2005 06:25 pm Post subject:


We could even write a glossary. That's not the only term that
needs explaining. Another is how "industrial union" differs from
any "labor union." Another one is the use of "the state" as a
technical term. Lots more.




davesearles



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 416
Location: Vermont
Posted: 22 Feb 2005 12:49 am Post subject:


mikelepore wrote:
DeLeonist means the SIU. He may have said or written various
things that we aren't adopting, or done some things that we don't
wish to emulate. Same thing for the word Marxism - there are a few
specific concepts that can be listed.


Amen.

Dave